i am just putting thoughts down here because i gotta write them down in the hell section the topic does get pretty heavy even if it is shitposty at points (heavy like, ermmmmm my balls loololololol yolo swag) PREPARE for my shower thoughts (there is a chance i have forgotten a couple things and may come back to this to EDIT) ==-------------- free will ==-------------- christianity finds itself in a catch-22 in regards to free will, evil existing on god's watch, and how sin doesn't enter heaven so the primary defense for "why does god allow evil to exist" is FREE WILL FREE WILL YOU WOULDNT WANT TO BE A ROBOT WOULD YOU (2nd one is original sin!!! original sin what abou-)(even though lowkey that contradicts free will like....... like i had zero fucking input in (hypothetically) my great grandad being a fuck shitto and killing 19 people in miami why would i be blamed for adam/eve and the FOrbidden FruitTM) when it's all said and done, WHAT is stopping people in heaven from sinning? they have free will after all don't they?? a thought experiment: if sin cannot enter heaven, is hell a place where sin is constantly happening? so are sinners in hell jerking their shit while they're getting mutilated and cut into sashimi and roasted alive???? are they taking GAY backshots???? is there GAY demon sex in hell?? is the answer for no one in heaven sinning "well u wouldnt WANT to sin while ur in heaven" because that's A VIOLATION OF free will and also why wouldn't god just make humans who wouldn't WANT to sin in the first place in the beginning "because they need the memory of earth's sin to Not Want To Sin!! b-but also the only memory of sin will be jesus's palm holes from when he got nailed!!" honestly i think people would have gay sex anyway if that was hte only memory so that is Not an Argument "god has aura and it makes u not want to sin!!!" so it's changing my will? it's altering my will? so i DON'T have free will, ok if either of the above quotes ARE magically right, why didn't god apply the memory or aura to destroy evil while also allowing free will? and if the memory shit would work i don't think the memory has to fucking happen for real, it can be implanted, god SURELY can implant memories because he has 0 limitations free will cannot be used as a solution to why god allows evil to exist god can not be good AND all powerful AND all knowing the bible IS false ==-------------- heaven ==-------------- so heaven is where you are supposed to be in perpetual bliss and worshipping god forever for the rest of eternity do you know how long ETERNITY is ETERNITY is not just 5 years or 20 years, or even 1000 years It Is Not Even BEGINNING to be over when 10 /trillion/ fucking years have passed, not even halfway through when 9999 QUADRILLION years have passed, you haven't even Sat DOWN when 99 trestrigintillion years (one hundred googol, basically) have passed it is utterly incomprehensible to the human mind how LONG that is and you are going to be worshipping god for that long maybe i could fw 200 years in bliss if it's that but after 100,000 years? 100 million? for the vast majority of that shit i would want to KILL myself please just let me fucking LEAVE heaven after i've had enough what if i want to leave? but you CANNOT LEAVE HEAVEN you can never leave; You're Here Forever free will? erm..... what did he do ahahhah ... ...(assuming you keep your memory in heaven) how could a christian father, knowing that his daughter was not a christian and is in hell, enjoy heaven in any capacity with that knowledge? how can he cope with knowing that she is being barbecued 24/7 365 for 999 trillion years (and then another 999 trillion, then another 999 trillion ad infinitum) also what kind of being wants you to fucking worship them, what fuckin egotistical piece of shit wants MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM to be DEFINED by me WORSHIPING THEM, who in the HELL pretends that's a relationship that's not a fucking relationship imagine a guy proposing to you like YOU MUST MARRY ME OR ELSE I TORTURE YOU IN MY BASEMENT is that.. is that a choice???? how is it a choice to (1) either marry this asshole or (2) have my cock put in an egg slicer + i get a toothache that cannot be fixed + my check engine light comes on obviously i would pick fucking NEITHER why would i want to marry fucking jeffrey dahmer now christianity faces us with jeffrey dahmer [Ascended to Godhood] and we must worship him or suffer endlessly ==-------------- hell ==-------------- in christian lore (outside of universalism which says every1 goes 2 heaven) you have to believe in jesus to NOT go be tortured for eternity if you read the heaven section (why...why wouldnt you) you can maybe see a glimpse of how FUCKING long eternity is, it is not possible with just language to communicate how long it is , like genuinely and christians are ok with believing that any of their loved ones who happen to not be in their cult 1000% are going to be tortured and burned alive for an unending length of time is junko furuta in hell? (it is statistically unlikely she was christian) is sylvia likens in hell? (its possible she was christian but not 100% certain) (look them up if you don't know their stories) another question in the same vein, more well known but it is less easy to grasp because it happened on a larger scale: are non-christian holocaust victims in hell? if the answer to any of these questions is Yes then not only is god completely evil (and absolutely dwarfs any version of satan in terms of evil) but he also is a continuation of the original murderers and tormentors of these people, utterly utterly VILE people and not only a continuation but an absolutely infinite one as the one who keeps hell running in perpetuity, who can stop it at any time, god is NOT good in ANY capacity this ALSO applies if it's argued that "oh well god is life and if u dont have his presence and ur separated from him u turn into worm food that somehow regenerates also u burn burn burn in a burning ring of fire" this quote is christians pulling a "SOURCE: my ass" moment but if that is true, god has an ethical obligation to keep his presence on everyone even if they never hear about him or Accept ChristTM or whatever the fuck if he's the life support of all life the situation stands that god is complicit in and is outright the perpetrator of: evils beyond human comprehension ==-------------- false prophecy ==-------------- in matthew 16 jesus makes a promise that Does Not Come True and it is very very obvious chapter and verse demarcations are invented after the fact and promote specific interpretations and cherrypicking, you want to include the whole sentence or paragraph but thats too meandering a lot of the time this is part of a larger paragraph, but before it is just musings about following jesus and "not gaining the whole world at the expense of your soul" the first sentence informs the second but the website or translation (and thus interpretation) twists it to make it not look like it does matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. people who were there to listen to him are dead lol, and self-evidently, the kingdom of heaven did not fucking arrive on earth in 33 AD or whenever no he was not fucking referring to the transfiguration which only was witnessed by 3 people and there were definitely more than that present for this, no he was not referring to the dying and coming back 3 days later because that would literally just make this "YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DIE UNTIL AFTER 8 DAYS FROM NOW" (or a few weeks from then) he was saying "heaven dropping while ur still alive lmao" and it did not happen ==-------------- conclusion (for now????) ==-------------- christianity is a business, it collects money from donations and it runs TAX FREE (in churches in america where christianity is the most popular (america is absolutely absolutely fucked but that's another story)) do NOT look up pastor's houses/mansions or cars (infohazard) christianity is also a CULT which members are discouraged from engaging with shit outside of it (to varying degrees) i mean like you can't marry a non-christian in probably 90% of cases (the "U MUST BE EQUALLY YOKED" from 2 corinthians) and hanging out with non-christians in some cases not all is limited to proselytizing efforts the cultish shit is especially evident in keeping christians in check through the threat of ostracization where if you are a member and then leave you lose ur community and privileges or like any number of consequences can happen many chrsitians have an utterly psychotic view of non-christians because they believe that you cannot be ethical without believing in a god, like hmmm yes i would definitely go be kidnapping and murdering people if i didn't know about spider-man, i would just kill and kill and kill no they seriously believe this and like think that christian=GOOD PERSON and athiest or muslim= BAD PERSON it is a bias that is sometimes unconscious, sometimes out in the open christianity is Not Fucking logical anyway there's probably more but i am hungry and clicking send now byebye

Hey, at least it's not Judaism. That said, I haven't read the Bible, so I don't think I can really respond in any reasonable capacity. I suppose one thing to keep in mind is that the Bible isn't really a book, but a library (hence the name). It's made up of various books written by various people across many ages, with various translations of varying quality, then analysed and reinterpreted in various ways in at attempt to resolve the contradictions and archaic language. Regardless, Christianity is generally one of the more chill religions compared to some others. But you always get the sects that do things a bit differently. They way you describe Christianity is akin to saying that Islam is a religion of terrorism. Both religions call for the persecution and death of non-believers if those parts of their respective scripture are interpreted as such, but it's rather unfair to draw such a wide brush stroke.

I understand your deep frustration and skepticism toward Christianity, and some of your language reflects genuine engagement with serious philosophical and theological questions. These aren’t new objections and Christians have wrestled with them for centuries. I’d like to offer a different way of approaching these topics, I am not here to convert not convince you but would like try and correctly address some of these issues. God intends human to be in communion with him, not to coerce them. Mankind is given free will, and part of that reality includes the possibility of evil. We must not think of God as a physical thing that exist in a literal observation of us. The Christian faith is one that comes from revelation, and there are things that cannot be easily grasped with our modern interpretation of ancient scripture. Evil exists and it is necessarily permitted to exist. Seems a little unsatisfactory of an answer but there's a lot more that we could go into on this topic. It's a bit hard, but maybe it's not so hard to understand that there's a lot more to be understood within a holistic paradigm. Heaven is not something that we really understand or really know to exist in this moment. Maybe some liberal depictions have created a little bit of a misunderstanding. That being said making some hypothetical argument about sin not being able to enter heaven and jerking it in hell doesn't give much to talk about. We really don't know what heaven is nor what it entails truly, we can read the Book of Revelation, but the problem is that we're prone to understand in a literal way. Christianity and the understanding of scripture has suffered a bit to modern interpretation. You can actually go and read what the early "Church fathers believed and how the scriptures were understood" unfortunately picking up a Bible and believing what you understand of it is not always conducive to is intended meaning. More on heaven. Again, we cannot actually know, even if someone claims to have had a vision or a near-death experience Christianity teaches that you cannot always trust what you feel, likewise what you may have a dream about. As we are man, visions can come from either three places. From ourselves, demons, or God. It would be foolish to claim to know the difference no matter how convinced we may be. You are totally right, such things are incomprehensible. We understand that we must all answer to God when the day comes. What day exactly? We don't know, there will be signs of the times but Christ comes like a thief in the night. (paraphrasing scripture) Communion with Christ is totally a choice, and it's a little difficult to follow the example of being "forced to marry" Again, I can see you're trying to abstract concepts in literal way, but this is really a fault of modern interpretation. So nobody knows who actually goes to heaven, the Christian paradigm provides us with a good guide of how we should live and %100 percent makes the knowledge claim of being "true" but it does not tell you who will indeed go to heaven. Christ provides an excellent example and teachings to us that we may live as good Christian. You can "cherry pick" whatever you want to say "yes it does!" but I'd argue that you are misunderstanding something. Just how you could take some phrases and claim that you "must do this to be saved" and spin it to mean whatever you want. (of course this would be wrong) In Christ/God there is life, but probably not the way you understand. The fall of man (Garden of Eden) is what caused death.. but not as you may understand it entirely. Christ came as the word incarnate to fulfil a new covenant to give us life/regeneration. Christ came to destroy death, and descended into Hades to preach the Gospel. (yes this is in the scripture) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. But is it that simple? No, not really, simple "belief is not what being a Christian is about. There are also the things you do. As I had stated before, physical death is not the end of life. Death is to be without Christ, not to literally die as you and I know. That is what it means to not taste death, but of course those who died before Christ had been crucified indeed would have tasted death. Many "churches" are really just cults. People will till the end of times as we know it use the word of God for evil. Churches do take money to run, and are community driven efforts. I think it's pretty easy to see in the example of "Mega Churches" how corruption occurs. Some more on that note real quick. Google "Timeline of Church history" and you can see how apostatised many "Churches" really are. Yes, Christianity does discourage engaging in many things especially not marrying another Christian. You can definitely hang out with non- Christians, it would be awfully silly to ostracize somebody over that though I'm sure it could happen. So it's also not true that you cannot be ethical without being a Christian, but where do you suppose morals come from? Common sense? Evolution? Science? We could begin to suppose that it could, but it's gonna fall short for a true justification as to why that may be the case. Morals cannot be subjective, as that would mean that they could easily change. I can totally see how Christianity cannot seem logical, but I think you might be demanding a simple answer to something a bit more complex. I'm sure I didn't give a completely satisfactory answer as I'm not looking to convince of anything but I am completely open to try and answer what I can. Hope this reply find you well, my intention is not to provoke so I hope we can keep it civil and avoid egregious insults.

Just wanna put my 2 cents in here. If you think Christianity is psychotic please look into the Talmud. I'd argue out of the 3 abrahamic religions, christianity has the least offending stuff to people's lives. The current modern chrisianity that christians believe in doesn't seem very harmful. I'd like to mention that while the bible has a lot of contradictions, I think that people can pick and choose what to believe. For example, when some kid asked the pope if his non believing father was in hell, the pope said no. I'm not an expert on this so please don't come at me for not knowing stuff. And islam.. Your post was long, but I think if you read the Quran and the Hadiths your post could have a reading length of 7 hours. I.E. What kind of prophet marries at 6 year old!??!?!

I'd like add since it came up, comparatively on a philosophical Christianity is a solid as it can get. I do want to also say that I'm not of the belief that the bible in anyway contradicts its self. The old testament is largely an account telling of the many times people transgressed the laws of God, and how they suffered subsequently. A recurring theme is how the prophets were continually chosen and how eventually people would stray from God. So something that may be used out of context would be like saying "God allows or tells you to have slaves." This would be a good example of taking something out of context. There are indeed guidelines that teach you how you might treat a servant, but that does not really equal to out modern understanding of slavery. I'd add to that God did not tell people to have servants either, this would totally be a result of freewill. (it was Christian nations that would also put an end to servants while Muslims still practice it to this day) There are also themes of sexual violence and child sacrifice in the bible but it's pretty clear that the bible says they are not good things. Since I glossed over it I want to go back to the Talmud briefly and then the Quran. Modern Judaism is not the same as it was before Christ. The Jewish people back the, while many did not, rejected Christ as the messiah and had him crucified via the Roman. Fun fact when the bible refers to the nation of "Israel" or "the new Israel" this is in reference to those who would come to be Christians, not to those who would rejects Christ as Jesus specifically foretold that the old temple would be destroyed. Modern Jews believe that Christ is burning in feces and that non Jews are like cattle. (just like Muslims) It's in their books if you really want more on that. The "prophet" Mohammed came something like 600 years after Christ and claimed that he had received the world of God and would go on to make the absolute abominations of a religion called Islam. Making claims that Christ was not divine (like the Jewish people did) and that he did not really die on the cross. Islam also teaches you not to question the faith while Christianity encourages one to reflect upon and meditate on the word of God. Neat fact is that the bible actually had already addressed something like this. Galatians 1:8:"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed". I'd totally look into these things though if you are curious rather than just take my word for it. I used to be more than critical of Christianity until I came to terms with the fact that I didn't actually know as much as I thought about it.

I remember when we had a similar thread like 7 years ago and I don't wana go back and read what I wrote but I've grown as a person since then. I completely agree with you. For some reason i hesitate to call myself an ex catholic but i'm sure I will start soon. I went to bible school and was confirmed and everything. Looking back, I am sure something sinister was going on back then, at the time as a child I didn't feel that way at all but. There were many times we were alone with those adults. It's creepy looking back and thankfully i think nothing bad happened to me but it could've to others. Suddenly the priest was replaced with no warning and the congregation continued as nothing happened. I wonder why...

COUPLED There definitely is something off I tend to feel when around organised religion. The way I see it, I can be into the faith, but the idea of priests and stuff I find a bit... cringe?

christianity is psychotic

frenchfry

I'm going to try to finish the bible today

Saoru
Erm actually in Zechariah 13-3 "And if any one again appears as a prophet, his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies."But they kinda go back on it in Malachi 4-5 "Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great day comes" and Jesus was confused to be Eli'jah when crying to God while crucified so I guess that is Jesus

malmon

Saoru

frenchfry

Which Bibles are you guys reading?

Zacharias 13-3
And it shall come to pass, that when any man shall prophesy any more, his father and his mother that brought him into the world, shall say to him: Thou shalt not live: because thou hast spoken a lie in the name of the Lord. And his father, and his mother, his parents, shall thrust him through, when he shall prophesy.

Malachias 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elias the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Galatians 1-8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Wasn't Elijah some centuries before Jesus? Or is the interpretation that Jesus was a sort of reincarnation of Elijah?

mauhs

frenchfry that verse in zecharia is usually just interpreted as only referring to false prophets

mauhs

malmon from wikipedia: "The Christian New Testament notes that some people thought that Jesus was, in some sense, Elijah,[19] but it also makes clear that John the Baptist is "the Elijah" who was promised to come in Malachi 3:1; 4:5"
and yeah, elijah was centuries before jesus (i think, at least)

frenchfry

malmon
Revised Standard Version, based on the American Standard Version

malmon

mauhs but what makes someone a false prophet?

mauhs

malmon if what they say violates pre existing commandments or just doesn't come true

nyahaha

I am not christian, but I would regard it as an adaptive thing to be a cristian.
Being a subject of higher power or a servant is paradoxically empowering to a person's life;
and the example of Jesus divinity is something anyone could conceivably achieve and i feel that cultivating towards something above humanity is something necessary for a society and/or people , and Jesus in particular is probably the best example for divinity to follow.
Believing and internalizing that every good act will be rewarded, and evil one punished is good for a society ;
I regard a shame-based society as inferior to a guilty-based one.
heaven is supposed to be the earth we are living on right now, so it implicitly pushes you to care for the place you live and nature.

a society made of me would probably be more psychotic than one made by christians.
For example, I don't have any moral problem with eugenics I mainly just dislike the people espousing the idea;
Entertaining eugenicism, I feel gets you closer to psychopathy rather than morally rejecting the idea outright.

malmon

mauhs if what they say violates pre existing commandments

But then what's the need for a prophet that just reinforces existing commandments?

frenchfry Interesting. I always feel like a lot of the modern translations would probably be too far from the original meaning...

mauhs

malmon I guess just to prophesize and be a spiritual role model

Saoru_Sotiri

malmon Yeah so it's a given that you will lose some of the original meaning with modern translations. There is the Septuagint, which is the closest you will come to the original Greek of the new testament. So some words when read in a modern translation can be easily misunderstood. For example.

Mathew 18:6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

"little ones" can be interpreted as children, but it really refers to those who are "little ones" in their faith, and could be easily led astray.

In Greek mikrōn (μικρῶν) "little ones" refers to being small in number, quantity, or used figuratively referring to things like dignity. Meaning those that are small and immature in their faith.

There are many study aids like the "Orthodox Study Bible" that provide more context for scripture. I read the NKJ for general reading, but of course it's a given that there's much more to be studied that the plain text, which is why Christianity is (should be) a holistic world view. There's definitely people way more qualifies to answer Theological questions than I in that regard.

If you are curious about some passage there's https://catenabible.com/mt/1 this site in which you wan pick out a passage and see what the commentary both modern and historical are, it has a very mobile friendly interface.

pxldnky77

Saikou TL;DR. Do you think God will lay out the answers to your every qualm in a pamphlet for you? What kind of humility is that? The questions you're asking were answered 2000 years ago; you just have to use that independent thought which you are so proud of and take a modern approach. Jesus was very much of the spirit of the law, as opposed to the letter. This is why he states 2 true commandments: to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Apply this to those which you call "contradictions" and they will drop like flies. How does God love us but allow some of us to burn indefinitely in hell? He doesn't. "B-B-B-But Corinthians 994-657 says-" If it is impossible for a loving God to do this, he does not do it. There is no rebuke.

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